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Quantum Quokka's avatar

This post is the most compelling assessment I've seen of the situation to date. Thank you for writing this up and sharing your analysis.

I've seen the full arguments from both sides of the Rootclaim debate, and regardless of people's opinions on how the debate played out with information available at the time, it seems undeniable that studies and key information have emerged since the debate which seem to overwhelmingly conclude that the wet market has extremely low odds of being the origin of the virus, as pointed out in your analysis, which would dramatically downward shift the probability assigned to the most important point in support of Zoonosis. Many commenters don't seem to be aware of how recent some of the key points of evidence are (some as recent as March 2024) which either were not available or may not have been fully understood at the time of the debate.

For those interested, here's a brief list of some recent information that updated me towards lab leak. This is for the sake of explaining my thoughts to others, but is in no way all-encompassing. Michael does a far superior job of explaining these in great depth.

- Study published March 5th, 2024 finding intermediate sequences between Lineage A and B (https://doi.org/10.1093/ve/veae020). This research shows that Lineage B very likely came from Lineage A. All cases in the market were Lineage B, but none were Lineage A. In short, the research shows that a single spillover is much more likely than a double-spillover Zoonotic event. The double-spillover theory is a foundational argument of the ZW theory that Peter Miller and others use. This is a massive blow to the probability that the wet market was the origin of the virus, to the point where it now seems extremely *unlikely* that the wet market was the origin.

- Wildlife trade in Wuhan is significantly less than Wuhan's percentage of the population, which significantly changes the probabilities downwards of a ZW origin in the bayesian calculations that Peter Miller and others use.

- Although the DEFUSE proposal leaked in 2021, more recent drafts were discovered in 2024 which contain what appears to be damning evidence. New information included their approach using restriction enzymes (BsaI/BsmBI) that ultimately matched precisely with what Bruttel et al. (2022) found as the assembly process that would create exactly this virus, years before this DEFUSE draft leak was even public. Michael describes the degree of how unlikely this would be if the origin was Zoonotic. The DEFUSE budget leak confirms that they were purchasing these enzymes. Additionally, the new documents contained draft comments that were not available in the original leaked proposal. Among many other things, the comments show that the research work was actually planned to be done at the WIV at BSL-2 levels for cost reduction, but they edited the final document to "BSL-3" because they thought "US researchers will likely freak out" if they knew this research was being done in lower safety BSL-2 labs. The researchers seemed to think the distinction didn't matter for their research and that it was bureaucratic tape slowing them down, so they fudged the proposal to hide this. Considering BSL-2 labs are not sufficiently designed to contain airborne disease (whereas BSL-3 labs are), this does not seem to be an insignificant point in this whole debate.

Peter Miller claimed that because the DEFUSE proposal was rejected meant that the proposed work never happened (or at least had an exceedingly low likelihood of occurring), which led to the proposal essentially being dismissed as evidence, at least when it came to evaluating the arguments and probabilities. However, it is unequivocally the case that many research scientists conduct research long before they apply for the grant for that research. It is also often the case that they apply for the grant while in the middle of conducting research. This is confirmed by countless research scientists online and it's just how research often is done due to the difficulty and delays of receiving funding. Peter's conclusion that the DEFUSE research did not happen because it was rejected is so at odds with how scientists conduct research that at best I would consider Peter ignorant of this point, and at worst it would seem Peter intentionally manipulated this point and tried to get the DEFUSE proposal dismissed as evidence because it would dramatically undermine his argument and potentially change the entire outcome of the debate.

There's more, but I'll wrap this up for now. My key takeaway is that Michael's approach and evidence seem more updated, complete, and compelling than anything else available online on the topic to date. It seems especially relevant and a better analysis than either sides of the Rootclaim debate, and I believe more people should be aware of this post and read it in full before making conclusions.

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Écorché's avatar

Thank you so much for this work.

I have one major suggestion, which is more discussion of how to interpret the numbers coming out. In particular, I was bothered by this analysis for a long time because the conclusion seemed too certain given the number of missing pieces. Intuitively, it seems like there should be some factor in there which has no information about the conclusion but vastly increases the uncertainty. Some or possibly all of this comes from me wanting to interpret the final numbers as representing degrees of certainty instead of subjective probabilities, but I doubt I'm the only one with that confusion.

I think this could be discussed in a few places - in the introduction, at the end when combining priors with evidence, and once at the point where you discuss the vast gap between RaTG13 and SC2. Any origin theory requires some sequences in this gap, and finding them could decide the case either way depending on whether they show up in wildlife or in a lab notebook. Maybe there's a way to evaluate counterfactual evidence formally but just discussing the significance of the missing evidence would help. For everybody's sanity there should be a clear distinction between "100:1 odds it was a lab leak" and "available evidence favors lab leak by 100:1".

There is a second small issue relating to the Bruttel et al paper and the seeming confirmation from the DEFUSE draft. I think it was Alina Chan who pointed out that the BsaI/BsmBI construction showed up in an earlier Baric paper, and that Bruttel et al probably read that paper. I didn't see any followup on that. Your wording seems to suggest that Bruttel et al predicted the choice of enzymes from looking at the genome, but that may be too strong. You didn't use it as evidence but it might be worth tweaking the text.

And a really small point: I would take the part about "quantifying friggin likely' out of the title. Most people won't get the joke, and you are so consistent about taking the high road in the rest of the document.

I can't thank you enough for this work: I really hope that you keep on this. Having it in a decent journal would be a huge step forward.

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